Please Opinionate

[commodorified]

The Great Canoe Search seems to have been narrowed down to three candidates:

1) 16' Nova Craft Tripper.

2) 15' Abitibi fibreglass.

3) 16' Old Town, model not specified, looks to me like a Charles River or a Camper.

Anyone got any experience with any of these?

Comments

[chickenfeet]

It depends a lot on the intended use. If you do a lot of tripping involving portages you will rapidly come to see the drawbacks of Royalex. It's heavy. It is way cool for white water though. In my experience 15' isn't big enough for anything longer than an overnight trip. The best all round tripping canoe is probably a 16' glass or kevlar boat with lines as close to the old Prospector as you can find.

[commodorified]

I don't forsee overnights, or not many, but there ARE four of us, so the Abitibi was at a definite disadvantage there.

The Old Town may be our best choice, then, assuming of course that it's still for sale.

[chickenfeet]

If you don't do much portaging the Nova would be OK too. The lines look pretty decent.

[commodorified]

The Nova is pleasing to me, and I have a feeling it might last better, but it's rather more money, too. ETA: and no pic with the ad.

We're not likely to portage except when paddling around in town and needing to get past Hartwell Locks, really.

[lasergirl]

It's a difficult trip, getting 4 people in one canoe, no matter what the size. (Honestly, it was difficult daytripping with one adult and 2 mid-sized kids when my Dad, sister and I canoe-camped).

[commodorified]

There was a 22 foot cedar-strip, but it costs a bomb and you know what they're like to maintain.

[catsittingstill]

Actually, If it's in good shape to start with, one coat of marine spar varnish a year should do it. (I've built 3 cedarstrips.) If you don't have time for a full coat, at least take a little brush and flow varnish into all the scratches. That's pretty quick.

[badgerbag]

I do really like my Old Town kayak. I don't have experience with this canoe though!

not me, but...

[thnidu]

Zero experience of my own, but I've passed your question along to a friend and well-known filker, catsittingstill on LJ, who not only does a lot of canoeing but builds her own canoes from scratch.

[lasergirl]

The Nova Craft looks to me the best bet, it has lower-slung seats (better for stability when paddling) and a fitted crossbrace (easier on the shoulders when portaging). Can't tell what the gunwales are made of, hopefully a plastic?? It's worth asking.

The Abitibi looks like it has aluminum gunwales, which you should avoid because they can cut and definitely discolour, not to mention knock fingers and ding paddle shafts. The seat height is ok, but could be lower, and the crossbrace isn't fitted.

The Old Town has nice fittings, is a proper canoe colour (honestly, my family's canoe is green) but the seats are very high.

I rate them as follows:

1. Nova Craft
2. Old Town
3. Abitibi

I had an Old Town Camper for years

[catsittingstill]

I'm here because thnidu mentioned that you were asking about canoes. I canoe a lot (mostly flatwater solo canoeing) and I built three canoes (out of directions in books) so I've looked into canoe design a little bit. You can see my DW (everything is also crossposted to LJ under the same name) and a lot of my canoeing or boatbuilding posts are tagged if you'd like to see them.

So, which canoe. It depends on what you want your canoe for. I'm sorry but I didn't, in a brief check, see much about that in your journal so I'll try and cover as many possibilities as I can.

Lake Canoeing

If you want a cane for lake canoeing, you will want something that goes in a straight line (tracks) well. (Okay, if you're just out to splash around and have fun, and going places really isn't an issue, then any canoe that will more or less keep you out of the drink will be fine and you can ignore the rest of this.) An Old Town Camper will be very frustrating in that regard, because it turns on a dime and sideslips easily--great for rivers, where the river does most of the moving-you-along and all you have to do is slide back and forth to get between the rocks--but lousy for lakes because you can't keep it pointed in the right direction, especially if there is wind.

The Nova Craft tripper, with its shallow arched hull and straight keel line, looks better for lake use.

River Canoeing

If you want a canoe for river canoeing, the question becomes do you want a white-water playboat (daytripping) or do you want a canoe for traveling and camping. The Camper is probably pretty good for the latter; my only concern is that it may not be big enough for four--you may want a seventeen or eighteen foot boat for that. Perhaps less of a problem if two of the four are very small, and a used canoe should keep its value reasonably well as long as you don't wrap it around a rock (if you hit a rock, lean toward it, not away). I'm guessing, since it looks like you're taking kids, the whitewater playboat is out, though, and anyway none of your prospects would be all that good for that.

If you want a canoe for both, I would go with the Nova Craft, personally, but would stay out of Class II whitewater and approach Class I with caution.

I suspect the 15 foot boat (the Abitibi) will be too small for your needs; that's awfully short for anything but a solo canoe. At its width it will be slow. Be wary of manufacturer stated capacities--they're often figuring flat water, no wind, perfectly still cargo, and other favorable conditions that may not apply to actual canoeing. Also 58 pounds is pretty darn heavy--this will matter mostly when portaging or putting the canoe on the car or taking it off. If you have a second person to help with these things, though, weight becomes much less important, and on the water it doesn't matter at all (except that the canoe's capacity is figured as though it weighs nothing, so subtract the canoe weight from that) unless you are racing.

Note that if you can, you should paddle all the possibilities--personal taste has a lot to do with which canoe you will find most fun. A lot of times that's just not possible, though and you have to make your best guess.

Safety Issues not directly related to canoe types.

Also, I don't want to be alarmist here, but moving water is very strong and can have some surprising effects. I myself am a flat-water canoer, because I go alone, and I am afraid to canoe in any but the most gentle of currents with no one to help me out if things go wrong. I don't know how much research you've done to this point, but I would say before you take small children on a river in a canoe, you should look into the various hazards and think seriously about how you're going to handle them (which for all I know you have already done--just mentioning it Just In Case.) A course on river safety with the local canoeing/kayaking club might be in order.

Canoes I have personally paddled: Old Town Camper

The Old Town Camper specifically--turns on a dime, as I said. IMO fine for class one whitewater (the most I've ever done) and maybe class two. (AFAIK whitewater is considered two classes higher in an open boat.) Has good initial stability--feels stable as a table. I used to stand up in mine to get a better view of the river, and had no problem. I think it's supposed to carry 600 lbs but with two tall adults and gear for a weekend campout it was kind of overloaded, in my opinion. (We did it several times, mind you, but one time we got into contrary waves, started shipping water, and had to "pull over" and empty the boat. Not a big deal as one goes canoeing with the assumption one may end up in the water at any time--and seeks out conditions and arranges one's gear and safety precautions in which that will not be fatal--but kind of annoying.)

General boat design issues

Longer boats track better and are faster and hold more weight, shorter boats are easier to turn and sideslip but are slower and hold less weight.

Narrower boats are faster and less stable and hold less weight, wider boats are more stable, and hold more weight.

Boats with flat bottoms have better initial stability, which beginners find reassuring, and are easier to turn, but slower. Boats with arched bottoms or v-bottoms are wiggly when you get in but track better and are faster.

Boats with tumblehome (sides are squeezed in at the top) make it easier to reach the water with the paddle but have poor secondary stability (if you tip them too far they flip without warning.) Boats with flared sides have good secondary stability (even with the gunwale at the water, they try to right themselves under you) but it's harder to reach over the edge with the paddle.

Boats with straight keel lines track better. Boats with keels that rise at the ends (rocker) turn better.

Boats with greater depth can carry more weight and keep waves out better, but catch the wind more.

TL; DR--I'd go for the Nova Craft, or if I wanted to do more challenging whitewater, the Camper. I hope this is helpful!

Re: I had an Old Town Camper for years

[thnidu]

Muč þanx for dropping in your 25¢ worþ!!

Re: I had an Old Town Camper for years

[commodorified]

That is AMAZINGLY helpful. Thank you!

1) Flatwater and easy rivers only: lakes, when travelling, and in-town the Rideau Canal, which is mostly stillwater, possibly the Trent-Severn canal, maybe a bit of the Rideau river. Possibly some overnights with two people, but most likely daytripping.

Limited portaging; canals have locks, but it's about a 10 metre portage, not a long haul.

2) Family of four adults, actually. Hoping in the nearish future to become a family of four adults and one child.

I suspect that if owning one canoe turns out to be something we really love, we're going to end up with two canoes. OTOH there are a fair number of canoes in our local crowd, enough that "own one, borrow one", is reasonable, and we can lend ours out in return.

The Old Town sold, so we shall have to see if the Nova is still available tomorrow when the car is in town. If not, well, I know what I'm watching for now, for sure.

Thanks again; that was a LOT of help.

Re: I had an Old Town Camper for years

[catsittingstill]

(blush) you are welcome.

Given your planned use I'd say Nova Craft is best but you'll probably need a second canoe (not a bad thing--if you fall in, having another canoe in the area can simplify life enormously.) You can start with one canoe and a picnic blanket and take turns canoeing out from the picnic blanket :-)

I modified my roof rack to allow carrying two canoes side by side. If you want to know more about that, let me know and I'll put up pictures. Canoe trailers also exist, but are expensive.

I hope you and your family have lots of fun!

Re: I had an Old Town Camper for years

[badgerbag]

Wow, that is all excellent advice!

Re: I had an Old Town Camper for years

[ranunculus]

I ran out and got a royalex canoe (wanted the quiet) with a mild rocker. 7 years in I'm still regretting the rocker. I canoe on a -very- windy lake and it is fiendishly difficult to make the darn thing track. For all the noise and uglyness, a basic old 17' Grumman aluminum canoe is hard to beat on a windy lake!

Off to look at pictures of Wherry's. Drool. Should make one...

Re: I had an Old Town Camper for years

[catsittingstill]

I had precisely this problem with the Camper. Compounded by the fact that I was going solo.

For what it's worth, and if it's still an issue: best bet--trim it level in the water to remove the weathervane problem. If you have 2 paddlers, one may have to kneel somewhere forward or back of their seat, unless you have enough gear to trim the boat--if you are going solo,, kneel in the middle, near one of the gunwales--that will tilt the boat a bit but you turn the high side of the boat toward the wind (or kneel on the appropriate side) and that reduces the degree to which the canoe catches the wind.

It's still hard to make it track, but this makes it somewhat easier.